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ADS2008 - slower than 2006?

Question asked by LI04124 on Feb 24, 2008
Latest reply on Mar 3, 2008 by MRUBIN

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Hello,

IÂ´ve just installed the new 2008 version of ADS.
The new "look & feel" is very nice, but some operations have become slower than with the old 2006 version.
Especially in the data display window, when I place a new chart it takes around a second until the window with the selection of the available curves pops up. In 2006 there was no noticeable delay as it is now.

In the schematic and layout window the new panning-function with the mouse right-clicked causes a quite slow screen refresh.

Does anybody else have the same problems?
Is it possible to turn off the right-click panning-function?

Best regards,

Thomas

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DEPAOLA Feb 25, 2008 2:14 AM
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Hi Thomas..
I also noticed the same problem and just contacted the Italian Support.
It seems that it is related to a different way that 2008 uses to send the images to the X server. If you want I can paste the response I got from him (it is in english so it should be fine). However, it seems that a solution will be available with the first update.
Ciao

Francesco
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MRLYONS68 Feb 25, 2008 7:47 AM
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I have also seen a slower response time with the new ADS-2008 first release. Specifically, when many windows are open (say >8), there is a definite window-focus delay that takes place (>1 sec). It doesn't seem to matter what window is open, schematic, data display, or layout, but the window reaction time is impaired somehow, almost like 2008 is trying to catch-up with a memory cache of some sort. It is very annoying when you are reacting much faster than the windows can keep up.

I have verified that this is not a problem in ADS-2006U2.

Regards,

Mike >:(
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LI04124 Feb 25, 2008 5:41 PM
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Hello Francesco,

yes, I would be very pleased if you can put the answer from your local support into this discussion.

Hi Mike,

I was running ADS2006-U3 before and didnÂ´t have any problems like this either.

So perhaps we are not the only "victims" and hopefully there will be solution to this problem very soon, otherwise I am thinking about switching back to the old version.

Best regards,

Thomas
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DEPAOLA Feb 25, 2008 6:53 PM
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Here it is.
"ADS 2008 performs all drawing on an in-memory image in the PDE (or DDS) process. For a large window on a large monitor, this in-memory image can be 7-8 Mbytes. When it's time to display the image, the image is transferred to the X server. When X server is on a remote machine, the image is transferred over the network. For a 100Mb/s network, the transfer takes slightly less than a second. So redisplaying even the simplest schematic takes on the order of a second.
In contrast, ADS 2006 sends drawing commands (not the whole image) across the network to the X server and the X server creates the image. This is much faster than 2008 for simple schematics/layouts."

Personally, I (and my lab) switched back to ADS2006U3. It's a pity but until a workaround will be available it seems to me the best solution. Just be aware that a schematic open once with 2008 will hardly be open again by 2006.

Ciao

Francesco
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LI04124 Feb 25, 2008 10:38 PM
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Ciao Francesco,

thanks a lot for your prompt answer!
Hopefully there will be a service pack solving this really annoying problem very soon!

Best regards,

Thomas

P.S. The new slogan "Double productivity with ADS2008..." seems to me like a little joke!
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ROB_LEFEBVRE Feb 25, 2008 10:55 PM
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The display infrastructure for ADS 2008 was completely rewritten. During testing, the vast majority of users have found that performance of schematics and layouts was improved, especially when using mouse-wheel zoom and right-click pan. If you are having performance issues, I would suggest contacting technical support directly.
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LI04124 Feb 25, 2008 11:11 PM
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Hello Rob,

thanks for the info!
Do you think there is a chance to allow the user to choose whether he wants to use these zoom & panning features or not, or is it principally not possible any more with this new software architecture?

Best regards,

Thomas
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ROB_LEFEBVRE Feb 25, 2008 11:16 PM
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I don't know of any reason to turn them off. They are only active if you actually use the mouse zoom or the right-click pan. If you are having general performance issues, these features are not the source, and you should contact tech support to have them help diagnose the issue. The snippet given from tech support was taken out of context and may or may not apply to you. In fact, odds are good that it doesn't actually apply.
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LI04124 Feb 25, 2008 11:26 PM
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Alright, IÂ´ll try to contact the Tech Support. If I get some news from them IÂ´ll let you know.

Regards, Thomas
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DEPAOLA Feb 25, 2008 11:30 PM
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Dear Rob,
sorry for hurting you by publishing the answer. Honestly I thought it could be helpful without blaming the software itself. However, my impression is that this new graphical feature was simply tested only in very fast lan environment and I am sure that a patch will resolve this issue soon. Also, experience says to me that sometimes it is just a matter of setting properly some "secret" variable in a config file to solve the problem.
Regards

Francesco
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ROB_LEFEBVRE Feb 25, 2008 11:45 PM
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No apology necessary! I just hope that there was some careful diagnosis done before you were given that answer.

I don't really want to get into technical discussion on the possible causes here, because there are just too many variables involved. I will say that the worst case that I am aware of was able to get to a 1/7 second update for small schematics and layouts on a large remote LAN display (about 2000x1300 resolution) once a few tweaks were made. And, the overwhelming majority find the new system better with no tweaks necessary.
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LI04124 Feb 26, 2008 12:27 AM
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Hello altogether,

I just got the answer from my local tech support that the reduced speed performance in the data display is due to the new software architecture which Rob already mentioned. So it doesn't seem to be directly related to any LAN performance. He said it will probably be improved with a patch.

Regards, Thomas
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ROB_LEFEBVRE Feb 26, 2008 12:47 AM
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I don't know how to say this any more delicately, and I hate to say it on a pulic forum, but you received a bad answer. (Or I guess possibly misinterpreted the answer, but that seems unlikely.) I can say this with absolute certainty, because the Tech Support process is to escalate any graphics performance issues that they can't solve to R&D, and we have received no such escalation. As of now, there is no patch planned for schematic/layout display speed because R&D does not know of any customers whose problems were not solvable.

I will make sure from inside that we are handling this right, and would ask that you talk to tech support again.
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LI04124 Feb 26, 2008 1:42 AM
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Hi Rob,

well, I don't want to spend to much effort on this topic as the problem itself is not a really major or blocking one.

Perhaps I am the first one who was really a little annoyed about this performance issue (because I was used to the top-speed performance of the 2006-version) but others (Francesco, Mike,...?) -including my contact person from tech support- seem to have made similar experiences.

What do you think, should we wait a couple of days if other users will come with the same problem too? Or should we continue this topic based on email out of this forum together with my contact person from tech support?

Regards, Thomas
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MF01 Feb 26, 2008 1:58 AM
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I noticed the same problem when testing 2008 Early Access version. The UI redraw speed is much slower when you are using a slow network connection (DSL or similar). The problem is not noticed much in a fast LAN environment. In fact, some operations like opening new schematic window etc works faster than before. So I can understand Rob's point that many testers feel that 2008 is faster than 2006. I think that is true in fast LAN environment or when running ADS locally on your computer. But if you are using slow connections a lot, which I do when I work from home, and you have to run ADS on a beefy server at work and display the screen on your computer using VNC or Exceed etc then it really becomes a problem. For example, you click on a menu - have to wait ~5 seconds before the menu shows up in 2008. With 2006 and earlier the same menu takes less than a second to show up. Or in other words, my productivity is suddenly 20% of 2006A when using 2008A from home. I reported my findings to EEsof when testing 2008 Early Access.

-Mats
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DEPAOLA Feb 26, 2008 2:22 AM
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Yesterday my local tech support told me that he was going to notify such a problem to the R&D.
Maybe he still have to do it but sooner or later he will.
Rob, I think that you just got nervous after the sentence "Double productivity with ADS2008..." ;)
I agree with Thomas that this is not a great problem.
Also, I perfectly know that if my LAN is slow it is not an agilent problem. So let's wait if also someone else will experience this problem.

Ciao

Francesco
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MF01 Feb 26, 2008 2:50 AM
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For most users it's probably a non-issue, or just a small annoyance. For someone who works from home all the time and needs to run ADS on the company servers (speed/capacity for simulation might force you to use Linux servers at work) - then this is a big deal. I'm lucky, I can control my time, working from home/in the office at my discretion to a large degree. And I can use 2006 when working from home. So right now I don't feel that this is an issue. But it will become a bigger issue when we're phasing out 2006 and we have to use 2008+. Will have to think twice if you really want to work from home then.

Don't take my remark about productivity too serious either. I was just using the same kind of (marketing) math EEsof is using when calculating productivity improvements. The numbers just reflects the time difference for that specific task/operation - not the actual productivity.

As I said above..... this issue is not a major/generic issue. It only affects a certain group of users. And it doesn't prevent them from using 2008.
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ROB_LEFEBVRE Feb 26, 2008 3:00 AM
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If you are working remotely (offsite), be sure to use VNC or Exceed, that will really help the speed for WAN connections.
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MF01 Feb 26, 2008 3:07 AM
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Exceed is in my experience faster / more efficient than VNC when you are running on slow connections. My findings above was mainly with VNC. I did some tests with Exceed and it improved the situation a little.

-Mats
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MRLYONS68 Feb 27, 2008 2:18 AM
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Hello, all

I have done some additional testing and found that this delay is definitely related to network speed. I typically run ADS locally, but I access my project files on my company LAN (because it is backed up more frequently than my own hard drive ). After copying over my project to my local C: drive, I am running with no noticeable delays in ADS-2008. However, I have never had to resort to using my local hard drive in the past, so this has created an additional nusiance for me and my back-up routine.

Hope this helps.

Regards, Mike
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ROB_LEFEBVRE Feb 27, 2008 6:24 AM
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Mike,

Thanks for the additional information. One of the problems with using a forum for this is that it is very difficult to diagnose. You gave enough details so that I can say with almost absolute certainty that your issue is unrelated to the problem described in the quote from technical support. Yes, it might be network speed related, but not because of transferring images.

This sounds to me like something we haven't heard about and is possibly specific to your network.

Ro
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DEPAOLA Feb 27, 2008 6:37 AM
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Hi,
I think that the word "image" means "everything you see in a X window". So an image is a schematic, another image is the zoom in or zoom out and so. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Also, I changed one switch with a faster one and the problem is much alleviated and almost not noticeable.
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lnorbit Feb 27, 2008 6:49 PM
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FWIW, we're running ADS2008 on a linux server, with linux local machines, and ADS2008 is definately slower WRT UI. We are using 100Mbps switches and typical sftp speeds to my server are 90Mbps, so we should have a reasonable actual bandwidth available.

Just typing 'text' on a schematic has ~300ms 'echo' time.
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LI04124 Feb 28, 2008 11:07 PM
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Hi together,

in the meantime I have the feedback from my other colleagues that they also notice significant slower responses on the whole GUI. We are all working locally on our own machines so at least in our case this decreased performance is not related to a network connection.

Have a nice weekend!
Regards, Thomas
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ROB_LEFEBVRE Feb 28, 2008 11:24 PM
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Thomas,

This should be much easier to figure out, since no network is involved. Is the problem in schematic/layout, data display, or both? On a particular operating system? Is a network involved at all, other than licensing? (I would temporarily pull your cable out while running to be sure!)

One major change is that, for complex circuits or graphs, the software will go into a "cache" mode. This allows you to very quickly navigate around using mouse wheel zoom and right-click pan. Then, the display updates fully. If that mode is active, you will see a little box on the lower right that says "Cached" then "Busy". If that is what is happening, then it is expected, although it is possible we need to tweak it a little as we go forward. The drawing is only occuring while it says "Busy" in that case.

The net result of the above feature is that most users say that the display feels much faster this release.

Rob
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LI04124 Feb 28, 2008 11:44 PM
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Hi Rob,

it happens in schematic/layout as well as in data display. In schematic/layout it is mainly a little slower refresh speed - I think probably due to the new graphic architecture.
But in data display it takes clearly more than a second if you double-click into a chart until the window with the curves and plot options pops up. The pop-up windows in schematic and layout are as quick as before in 2006.
My colleagues use Windows XP, SP2 while I use Windows XP64. We all use node-locked licenses, our PCs are connected to a LAN. I even plugged out the network cable, but the behaviour does not change.

Regards, Thomas
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ROB_LEFEBVRE Feb 29, 2008 12:10 AM
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Thomas,

Thanks for the great data. What you describe isn't all that surprising, except for the magnitude of the slowdown in data display.

One major difference on a local pc in how the drawing is now happening is that we now create the image in RAM, then we send it to the video card to display. In other words, our software is actually rendering the lines, polygons, text, etc. In 2006A, Windows was rendering it, which means that it was possibly happening on the graphics card (depending on the card and driver). This is actually a very important change for the future, because we can really modernize the display in upcoming releases. The new "transparent" layers is just a taste of that. (In the layer editor, try setting transparency to 50. You will probabl want to turn on a solid fill, plus some people prefer a solid outline, too.)

So, the performance characteristics are now completely different. On computers with cheap video cards, we are now about twice as fast on typical circuits. On computers with top-of-the-line cards, we lost 10% or so. I guessing that explains your observation in the schematic.

Data Display is now redrawing more frequently than before, for temporary technical reasons. That almost certainly accounts for your slowdown, although I am surprised it is as long as you say: if the draing takes more than about a half-second, it will go into "cached" more, and the dialog should come up right away.

How big is he data display windows, approximately, in pixels? Is the problem on empty data displays? Data displays with a lot of data? Both? If you shrink the window, does the hesitation go away? The second and third time you open a dialog in the same data display window, do you see the problem? At any time, do you see the blue box "cached view" on the lower right? Do you see identical hesitation while updating when drawing an outline?

Sorry for all of the questions, but each one has specific technical meaning and will isolate the problem (I hope). If a network were involved, these questions would not be anywhere near sufficient to diagnose, which is why we can't try to solve those issues on the forum.

Thanks,

Rob
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LI04124 Feb 29, 2008 12:39 AM
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Hi Rob,

slowly I get the feeling that the problem might be related to the overall size of my project. In the meantime the size of my current project has grown to around 18GByte!
I tried another smaller project and there the effect of slowly opening pop-up windows in the data display is still there but not as strong as in my current large project (it takes now only half the time than in my large project, but still longer than under 2006). So, might the project size be a reason?

To your other questions:

* the problem is independent on the window size
* yes, it occurs also on empty data displays
* no matter, if a lot of or only very few content is in the display
* as mentioned, window size does not matter
* it's the same behaviour, no matter how often I click into a chart
* the blue window "cache/busy" appears only when I do zooming/panning actions, not when opening a pop-up window
* drawing outlines works without any delay, same speed as in 2006

By the way, I use a NVidia Quadro FX1500, so a relatively high performance 3D graphics card.

I hope I could answer your questions satisfactorily.
I am now going to leave the office into the weekend!
Thanks again for your effort!!!
"See" you on monday?

Regards, Thomas
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ROB_LEFEBVRE Feb 29, 2008 1:04 AM
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Thanks for the quick answer and the details! I am now reasonably certain that this major delay has nothing to do with graphics.

When Mike reported the network slowdown, my first guess was that it is the project manager in pde: we now keep track on all of the files in the project. This is in preparation for the entire system to become multii-user aware someday. However, Data Display doesn't use the project window, so I'm now stuck again wondering what the problem might be. I'm guessing that this is the same problem Mike had but in a different form. We'll have to try to replicate it here.

The small schematic slowdown is probably because of the graphics card difference. You should expect that to improve over the next few updates, but probably not in Update 1.

Thanks,

Rob
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MRUBIN Mar 3, 2008 4:19 AM
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Hi,
The delay in the DDS when the plot dialog appears is a known issue. It has been submitted in EEsof's defect tracking database as # 192925. Currently, plans are to address in some point in the ADS2008 release train.

The problem appears to have two factors: Quantity and size of dataset files in the ./data folder. As a work around, remove .ds files that are not needed. Further, remove very large (e.g. 40MB+) .ds that are not used. I believe this latter suggestion is more important than the former. Or if this is not possible, consider breaking up the project into small separate projects.

In addressing your inquiry about the right mouse click. Currently, there is no option preference to disable right mouse click pan. I am not sure what is driving this request, but if it is because you wish to see the right click menu and not pan, simply do a brief right mouse click and the menu appears.

I hope these have helped address your issues, but if not, I would suggest working with our technical support team,

http://eesof.tm.agilent.com/support/supp101.html

Regards,
Matt Rubin
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