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How to generate the two layers in ADS & help need for generating two layers

Question asked by nimbargi on Feb 24, 2014
Latest reply on Mar 1, 2014 by volker_muehlhaus

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Dear Sir,
I need to generate two layers layout using ADS2009. Can you anybody help me to generate the two layers as shown in the below in the figure TWO_LAYER_LAYOUT_EXAMPLE. What are the setting need to do for generating two layers from schematic to layout generation . We need upper layer and bottom layer , in between upper and bottom layer , there is substrate gap, how to set this height of the substrate between two layers. I need to generate as shown in the figure TWO_LAYER_LAYOUT_EXAMPLE. What I need to connect in the schematic of the ADS to generate as shown below. Can you anybody having help document for generating two layers in ADS 2009 , can you show me.

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SCHEMATIC_FOR_TWO_LAYER_LAYOUT_GENERATION.jpg564.4 KB
TWO_LAYER_LAYOUT_EXAMPLE.png7.8 KB

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sdgrant Feb 24, 2014 9:05 AM
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To get a two sided layout link the MLIN TL3 with a different substrate instance that has the Cond1 and Cond2 layer settings swapped over, assuming cond and cond2 are the two layers configured for the double sided board metalizations.

The thickness of the substare is set by the substrate instance shown on your schematic.
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- nimbargi @ sdgrant on Feb 24, 2014 9:36 AM
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  sdgrant Sir,
  I am beginner for this two layer layout generation, I don't know how to generate the two layers. I know only place the MLIN's, MSBEND, MCORN for the required shape generation and press Generate/Update Layout and generating the single layer. I am new to this double layer. Can you show me the help document for generating double layers or I request you to tell in detail , how to obtain the double layer separated by substrate of thickness 0.508mm.
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  - sdgrant @ nimbargi on Feb 24, 2014 10:50 AM
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    As mentioned previously both items are defined by the substrate. Assuming that your vias are set to link between cond and cond2, which are the default values, then link TL3 to a different substrate instance that has the Cond1 and Cond2 layer settings swapped over.
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    msub.png8.4 KB
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    - nimbargi @ sdgrant on Feb 25, 2014 5:25 AM
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      sdgrant Sir,
      As you said, I did. But two conductors are appearing in the same layer itself, there is no separation appearing between two layers and via2 is not appearing to connected between upper layer and bottom layer. I have also taken two substrates and swapped the conductors also. What we have to do for getting two layer generation, even I viewed in the 3-dimensional view, there also it is showing single layer, what settings I need to do for getting two layer generation. I have attached the schematic, generated layout and 3-D view.
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      Two_Layer_Schematic.jpg574.2 KB
      Two_Layer_Layout_Generation.jpg1.2 MB
      3D_VIEW.jpg356.1 KB
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      - sdgrant @ nimbargi on Feb 25, 2014 7:46 AM
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        What is the purpose of the MCORN elements? These are not needed and probably leading to more confusion than necessary. Especially Corn3 and Corn4 as you have assigned these to the top side of the board but only bottom side elements should exist between the two vias. You only need MLIN - VIA2 - MLIN - VIA2 - MLIN.
        
        Also the size of the VIA2 elements does not match the size of the MLINs.
        
        For the 3D view you have only mapped cond so you will only see the top metal in that picture. You need to map cond2 and hole layeres to see all the element of the circuit.
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        nimbargi @ sdgrant on Feb 25, 2014 8:34 AM
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        > {quote:title=sdgrant wrote:}{quote}
        > You only need MLIN - VIA2 - MLIN - VIA2 - MLIN.
              sdgrant Sir,
                                  Yes , I need only MLIN-VIA2-MLIN-VIA2-MLIN. now,I used those things only in my schematic.
        > Also the size of the VIA2 elements does not match the size of the MLINs.
                                  Yes, size of VIA2 was not matching, now I changed the size of VIA2.
        > For the 3D view you have only mapped cond so you will only see the top metal in that picture. You need to map cond2 and hole layeres to see all the element of the circuit.
                                  Yes, I only mapped cond layer only, I didn't map cond2 and hole layers. I tried to map, couldn't do map the cond2 and hole layer. As I said earlier, I am beginner for this two layers layout generation. Can you help me how to map cond2 and hole layer and how to map all the layers, what settings need to do for viewing all layers in the 3-D view.
                                  Please make confirm sir , is it my schematic correct for the two layers layout generation as I shown figure in the posting #1
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        Two_Layer_Layout_Schematic.jpg527.4 KB
        Two_Layer_Layout_Generation.jpg748.5 KB
        3D_VIEW.jpg354.2 KB
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        sdgrant @ nimbargi on Feb 25, 2014 9:42 AM
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        There are still problems:
        1. You have mixed units, mm/um, on the two substrate elements.
        2. The diameter of the via holes will cut through the entire top and bottom metal areas. The default D/W ratio of 0.6 would make a better size. You have 0.99.
        3. The first picture you posted shows round/teardrop vias and not a square vias as used in your schematic.
        
        I can only show you how the substrate would look in ADS 2011 or later and not ADS 2009.
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        substrate.png8.1 KB
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        nimbargi @ sdgrant on Feb 25, 2014 10:35 AM
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        > {quote:title=sdgrant wrote:}{quote}
        > There are still problems:
        > 1. You have mixed units, mm/um, on the two substrate elements.
             sdgrant Sir,
                               Now I removed the mm/um on the two substrate, and used everywhere mm.
        > 2. The diameter of the via holes will cut through the entire top and bottom metal areas. The default D/W ratio of 0.6 would make a better size. You have 0.99.
                     sdgrant Sir,
                                      Now I changed the D/W ratio to 0.6 and height of VIA2 , now via hole will not cut entire top and bottom.
        > 3. The first picture you posted shows round/teardrop vias and not a square vias as used in your schematic.
                  sdgrant Sir,
                                 Now generated via holes are appearing as like square, because I changed the dimension D/W ratio to 0.6.
                                 Now you can clarify once schematic and layout and 3D view,it seems to be correct.
                                 As I told you earlier , I don't know , how to map cond2, hole . I have tried different ways to get 3D VIEW two layer, but I couldn't get. Please tell me sir, how to map cond2 ,hole ,and cond to see all layers in the 3D view.
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        Two_Layer_Layout_Generation.jpg778.3 KB
        Two_Layer_Layout_Schematic.jpg575.4 KB
        3d_VIEW.jpg345.5 KB
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        sdgrant @ nimbargi on Feb 25, 2014 11:56 AM
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        You changed the units but now the height of one substrate is 1000 times smaller than the other. They should be the same with just the layers inverted.
        
        Why have you made the via smaller again? You edited it to match the MLINs before and now it is smaller. Can you really drill a 0.381 mm hole?
        
        You are using ADS 2009, I only have the substrate in ADS 2012.08. That will not convert back to ADS 2009.
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        nimbargi @ sdgrant on Feb 25, 2014 10:39 PM
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        > {quote:title=sdgrant wrote:}{quote}
        >You changed the units but now the height of one substrate is 1000 times smaller than the other. They should be the same with just the layers inverted.
            sdgrant Sir,
                            Yes , I did mistake. Now I corrected, made both the heights of Msub1 and Msub2 to 0.508mm same heights for both.
        > Can you really drill a 0.381 mm hole?
        sdgrant Sir,
                            Yes, here we are giving for fabricator manufacturer, they will take order for making drilling holes upto 0.35mm also. Now it is possible 0.381 mm drill hole more than 0.35 mm. Yes it is possible for making drill 0.381 mm drill hole.
        > You are using ADS 2009, I only have the substrate in ADS 2012.08. That will not convert back to ADS 2009.
        sdgrant Sir,
                         Generally you tell me,how to map the cond2 and hole to view all layers in 3D view. That is only last point left to clear.
        
        Edited by: nimbargi on Feb 25, 2014 11:34 PM
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        Two_Layer_Layout_Schematic.jpg553.8 KB
        Two_Layer_Layout_Generation.jpg744.5 KB
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        sdgrant @ nimbargi on Feb 25, 2014 11:04 PM
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        > {quote:title=nimbargi wrote:}{quote}
        >                  Generally you tell me,how to map the cond2 and hole to view all layers in 3D view. That is only last point left to clear.
        
        I am running ADS 2012.08 where substrate definition is done graphically, see previous post. Similar substrate definitions were possible in very old versions like ADS 2009 but the process is completely different now. In ADS 2012 the process starts with File > New > Substrate, you do not have that command option in ADS 2009.
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        nimbargi @ sdgrant on Feb 25, 2014 11:04 PM
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        sdgrant Sir,
                            Thank you for your elaboration and patience help for me, thank you very much.
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        nimbargi @ sdgrant on Feb 26, 2014 10:29 PM
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        sdgrant Sir,
                       I had forgotten to ask one last clarification. We are creating double layer metalization, In the bottom layer (cond2), we are clearing surrounding part of the MLIN as shown below figure. If we clear like surrounding MLIN   and connecting MLIN in the bottom, will it not act as *defected ground structure* and not effect the results of S-paramters , gain.
                      In the simulation , I have swapped cond and cond2 for substrates and did the two layer metalization, I didn't find any difference before and after the insertion of bottom layer metalization.
                     What is my doubt is, if we remove surrounding part of the MLIN, after fabrication will it not effect the results.
                     Below attached figure red lines shows the surrounding part of the MLIN in the bottom layer.
                     Can you clarify this doubt.
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        Double_Metalization.jpg263.8 KB
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        sdgrant @ nimbargi on Feb 26, 2014 11:38 PM
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        As soon as you do anything like this MLINs will no longer behave exactly as ideal MLINs, if that really matters. You have to make sure that these structures are create in a way and in places where they will have least effect.
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        nimbargi @ sdgrant on Feb 27, 2014 7:21 AM
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        > {quote:title=sdgrant wrote:}{quote}
        > As soon as you do anything like this MLINs will no longer behave exactly as ideal MLINs, if that really matters. You have to make sure that these structures are create in a way and in places where they will have least effect.
        sdgrant Sir,
                       I am sorry that I didn't understand , what you said. Can clear it.
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        volker_muehlhaus @ nimbargi on Mar 1, 2014 3:23 AM
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        > {quote:title=nimbargi wrote:}{quote}
        >                We are creating double layer metalization, In the bottom layer (cond2), we are clearing surrounding part of the MLIN as shown below figure. If we clear like surrounding MLIN   and connecting MLIN in the bottom, will it not act as *defected ground structure* and not effect the results of S-paramters , gain.
        
        Correct. The electrical results for this section are not correct if you use MLIN and other microstrip model. That is what surprised me from the beginning in this thread: why spend so much time to draw the layout from microstrip elements, if we need to run EM simulation of the layout in Momentum anyway, for accurate results. If the electrical simulation is done with the EM solver, you can draw the layout "manually" with polygons, and there is no advantage of using MLIN and other microstrip elements for layout.
        
        So yes, you will need to run this in Momentum to get accurate electrical models for the crossover section.
        
        http://www.rf-design-tips.com/ads-quick-start-tutiorials-and-free-online-training/
        --> ADS Layout and EM (Day 3)
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        nimbargi @ sdgrant on Feb 25, 2014 7:02 PM
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        Dear Sir,
                       Due to server problem , it posted many times.
        
        Edited by: nimbargi on Feb 25, 2014 8:02 PM
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        nimbargi @ sdgrant on Feb 25, 2014 7:01 PM
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        Dear Sir,
                       Due to server problem , it posted many times.
        
        Edited by: nimbargi on Feb 25, 2014 8:01 PM
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        nimbargi @ sdgrant on Feb 25, 2014 7:01 PM
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        Dear Sir,
                       Due to server problem , it posted many times.
        
        Edited by: nimbargi on Feb 25, 2014 8:00 PM
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        nimbargi @ sdgrant on Feb 25, 2014 7:00 PM
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        Dear Sir,
                       Due to server problem , it posted many times.
        
        Edited by: nimbargi on Feb 25, 2014 7:59 PM
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How to generate the two layers in ADS & help need for generating two layers

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