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vrf USB/LAN instument interfaces

Question asked by VRFuser on Oct 30, 2006

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Everyone,

I want to take this discussion to wider (I hope) audience. So, I posted my comment below to my blog.

"It's possible that LAN will cut into GPIB's stronghold, but it will take time. There's a lot of talk about LXI (especially from Agilent) and all their new instruments have USB and most also have LAN and GPIB. I suspect the limiting factor in LAN adoption is that there are relatively few LAN or USB instruments but plenty lots with GPIB. I suspect that there will be a slow transition to Ethernet and it will take years to suppant GPIB. By they way, I still run into annoucements for new instruments that have RS-232 and GPIB and some with RS-232 only. I would think that by now those would have USB as well, but not all do.

Having said that, though, there are a lot of applications for USB that fall outside the traditional system test. Many people are using USB for data-acquistion with sensors and for digital I/O. But, they don't usually use USB in conjunction with GPIB--more likely they work with with PCI/PXI as well as USB and they don't use VISA so some of the issues discussed in this forum don't appear there.

I once wrote a column about Ethernet supplanting GPIB, and that was 10 years ago. It may be another 10 years..."

Please consider posting your VRF comments (especially Jay) to my blog.
Here's the URL:
http://www.reed-electronics.com/tmworld/content/CA622608.html
Then click on "Rowe's and columns."

Thanks,

Martin Rowe
Senior Technical Editor
Test & Measurement World
781-734-8419
m.rowe@tmworld.com
Listen to "The Measurement Blues" at www.tmworld.com/blues

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VRFuser Oct 19, 2006 8:37 AM
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Hello all,
I'm trying to get an inkling of where this industry is REALLY heading.
How much new system development have ya'all been doing strictly using USB/LAN, no IEEE488?
Regards,
D.H.

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VRFuser Oct 19, 2006 10:18 AM
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I recently have spec'd out and purchased an all LAN system, but I'm still in the early stages of writing instrument libs, so I can't tell you how this system performs as a working tester. I'm obviously assuming that it will perform better (or at least as good) as a GPIB system, otherwise I've wasted a lot of my company's money :o). It's definitely faster in transferring large amounts of data such as a scope trace.

Regards,

Reiner

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Hauck [mailto:dhauck@Anadigics.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:37 AM
To: VRF
Subject: [vrf] USB/LAN instument interfaces

Hello all,
I'm trying to get an inkling of where this industry is REALLY heading.
How much new system development have ya'all been doing strictly using USB/LAN, no IEEE488?
Regards,
D.H.

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VRFuser Oct 19, 2006 10:48 AM
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LAN and USB require the user to fool with the IO manager to add them in as a VISA device.
When a USB device moves out for cal, you have to fool with the IO manager again, as the SN is part of the VISA address. The new instrument does not look the same on the bus.
IO Control is also manual right now, no way to automate the VISA discovery / modification of equipment. Vee can be automated, but the IO control does not seem to be.

I have compared LAN, USB, and GPIB for speed. The speed of USB and Ethernet devices is slower for small SCPI commands. I agree that for large data transfers, the new interfaces are faster. For the majority of my work in RF, I don't move large amounts of data. For an occasional screen grab or trace transfer, GPIB still wins. Your IT person might not like all the traffic a bunch of ATE will add to the LAN, so when I do use Ethernet, I always use a second Ethernet card for test equipment.

Right now, I stick with GPIB, for ease of configuration and for speed.
I make my libraries compatible with all of the interfaces if the instrument supports it, but by default, I go with GPIB.

As a side note on the other topic of the day, the NI USB-GPIB-HS seems to be pretty fast, compared to the USB-GPIB-A. The "A" version has some wicked 20 or 30 mS delays on every read/write that is done! I retired all the "A" versions here.

Regards,
Joe Flynn

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Hauck [mailto:dhauck@Anadigics.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:37 AM
To: VRF
Subject: [vrf] USB/LAN instument interfaces

Hello all,
I'm trying to get an inkling of where this industry is REALLY heading.
How much new system development have ya'all been doing strictly using USB/LAN, no IEEE488?
Regards,
D.H.

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VRFuser Oct 27, 2006 11:46 AM
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Dale,

You're not alone. I'm the one who is supposed to figure this out and write about it. Of course, I get my info from people like you and other in this group.

It's possible that LAN will cut into GPIB's stronghold, but it will take time. There's a lot of talk about LXI (especially from Agilent) and all their new instruments have USB and most also have LAN and GPIB. I suspect the limiting factor in LAN adoption is that there are relatively few LAN or USB instruments but plenty lots with GPIB. I suspect that there will be a slow transition to Ethernet and it will take years to suppant GPIB. By they way, I still run into annoucements for new instruments that have RS-232 and GPIB and some with RS-232 only. I would think that by now those would have USB as well, but not all do.

Having said that, though, there are a lot of applications for USB that fall outside the traditional system test. Many people are using USB for data-acquistion with sensors and for digital I/O. But, they don't usually use USB in conjunction with GPIB--more likely they work with with PCI/PXI as well as USB and they don't use VISA so some of the issues discussed in this forum don't appear there.

I once write a column about Ethernet supplanting GPIB, and that was 10 years ago. It may be another 10 years...

Martin Rowe
Senior Technical Editor
Test & Measurement World
781-734-8419
m.rowe@tmworld.com
Listen to "The Measurement Blues" at www.tmworld.com/blues

-----Original Message-----
From: Schlieker, Reiner [mailto:reiner.schlieker@siemens.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:15 PM
To: VRF
Subject: RE: [vrf] USB/LAN instument interfaces

I recently have spec'd out and purchased an all LAN system, but I'm still in the early stages of writing instrument libs, so I can't tell you how this system performs as a working tester. I'm obviously assuming that it will perform better (or at least as good) as a GPIB system, otherwise I've wasted a lot of my company's money :o). It's definitely faster in transferring large amounts of data such as a scope trace.

Regards,

Reiner

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Hauck [mailto:dhauck@Anadigics.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:37 AM
To: VRF
Subject: [vrf] USB/LAN instument interfaces

Hello all,
I'm trying to get an inkling of where this industry is REALLY heading.
How much new system development have ya'all been doing strictly using USB/LAN, no IEEE488?
Regards,
D.H.

---
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VRFuser Oct 27, 2006 12:16 PM
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Correct Answer
Yes, I'm one of those who still request RS232....cheap and cheerful. GPIB promised much, but then RS232 started getting the right signal conditioning to get up to 355 KBaud.....good competition, considering the GPIB option was costing equipment suppliers...( unless you were in the monopoly GPIB/HPIB ), and the price of a card you had to install in your PC.....RS232 was already on the motherboard.
Â
Let that be a lesson.....RS232 is still fine, and USB has surpassed GPIB......notice the S letter....Serial......like SATA taking over from IDE.
Â
My final problem is that the motherboards are starting to come out with no-serial ports.....especially Laptops. Even my venture into USB to serial in this case has caused a 'Blue screen of death'Â on a couple of occasions.
Â
Thankfully you can get cheap and cheerful RS232 6 ports for under $30 for PCI.......BTW, when will theÂ PCI toÂ USB converter be coming out.....when all the PCI slots are extinct...!?!...progress!!
Â
Regards,

Willie Kiely
Advanced Manuf. Eng.
Bourns Electronics
Blackrock
Cork
Ireland
HYPERLINK "mailto:willie.kiely@bourns.com"willie.kiely@bourns.com
+353872222295
Â

Â _____ Â

From: Rowe, Martin (RBI-US) [mailto:mrowe@reedbusiness.com]
Sent: Fri 27/10/2006 19:44
To: VRF
Subject: RE: [vrf] USB/LAN instument interfaces

Dale,

You're not alone. I'm the one who is supposed to figure this out and write
about it. Of course, I get my info from people like you and other in this
group.

It's possible that LAN will cut into GPIB's stronghold, but it will take
time. There's a lot of talk about LXI (especially from Agilent) and all
their new instruments have USB and most also have LAN and GPIB. I suspect
the limiting factor in LAN adoption is that there are relatively few LAN or
USB instruments but plenty lots with GPIB. I suspect that there will be a
slow transition to Ethernet and it will take years to suppant GPIB. By they
way, I still run into annoucements for new instruments that have RS-232 and
GPIB and some with RS-232 only. I would think that by now those would have
USB as well, but not all do.

Having said that, though, there are a lot of applications for USB that fall
outside the traditional system test. Many people are using USB for
data-acquistion with sensors and for digital I/O. But, they don't usually
use USB in conjunction with GPIB--more likely they work with with PCI/PXI as
well as USB and they don't use VISA so some of the issues discussed in this
forum don't appear there.

I once write a column about Ethernet supplanting GPIB, and that was 10 years
ago. It may be another 10 years...

Martin Rowe
Senior Technical Editor
Test & Measurement World
781-734-8419
m.rowe@tmworld.com
Listen to "The Measurement Blues" at www.tmworld.com/blues

-----Original Message-----
From: Schlieker, Reiner [mailto:reiner.schlieker@siemens.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:15 PM
To: VRF
Subject: RE: [vrf] USB/LAN instument interfaces

I recently have spec'd out and purchased an all LAN system, but I'm still in
the early stages of writing instrument libs, so I can't tell you how this
system performs as a working tester.Â I'm obviously assuming that it will
perform better (or at least as good) as a GPIB system, otherwise I've wasted
a lot of my company's money :o).Â It's definitely faster in transferring
large amounts of data such as a scope trace.

Regards,

Reiner

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Hauck [mailto:dhauck@Anadigics.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:37 AM
To: VRF
Subject: [vrf] USB/LAN instument interfaces

Hello all,
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â I'm trying to get an inkling of where this industry is REALLY
heading.
Â Â Â Â Â Â Â How much new system development have ya'all been doing strictly
using USB/LAN, no IEEE488?
Regards,
D.H.

---

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VRFuser Oct 27, 2006 1:01 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
USB will likely become more pervasive with Microsoft's introduction of the User Mode Driver Framework. With this, you have user-land access to USB, as with serial ports previously.

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/driver/wdf/UMDF.mspx

-----Original Message-----
From: Rowe, Martin (RBI-US) [mailto:mrowe@reedbusiness.com]
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 12:45 PM
To: VRF
Subject: RE: [vrf] USB/LAN instument interfaces

Dale,

You're not alone. I'm the one who is supposed to figure this out and write about it. Of course, I get my info from people like you and other in this group.

It's possible that LAN will cut into GPIB's stronghold, but it will take time. There's a lot of talk about LXI (especially from Agilent) and all their new instruments have USB and most also have LAN and GPIB. I suspect the limiting factor in LAN adoption is that there are relatively few LAN or USB instruments but plenty lots with GPIB. I suspect that there will be a slow transition to Ethernet and it will take years to suppant GPIB. By they way, I still run into annoucements for new instruments that have RS-232 and GPIB and some with RS-232 only. I would think that by now those would have USB as well, but not all do.

Having said that, though, there are a lot of applications for USB that fall outside the traditional system test. Many people are using USB for data-acquistion with sensors and for digital I/O. But, they don't usually use USB in conjunction with GPIB--more likely they work with with PCI/PXI as well as USB and they don't use VISA so some of the issues discussed in this forum don't appear there.

I once write a column about Ethernet supplanting GPIB, and that was 10 years ago. It may be another 10 years...

Martin Rowe
Senior Technical Editor
Test & Measurement World
781-734-8419
m.rowe@tmworld.com
Listen to "The Measurement Blues" at www.tmworld.com/blues

-----Original Message-----
From: Schlieker, Reiner [mailto:reiner.schlieker@siemens.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:15 PM
To: VRF
Subject: RE: [vrf] USB/LAN instument interfaces

I recently have spec'd out and purchased an all LAN system, but I'm still in the early stages of writing instrument libs, so I can't tell you how this system performs as a working tester. I'm obviously assuming that it will perform better (or at least as good) as a GPIB system, otherwise I've wasted a lot of my company's money :o). It's definitely faster in transferring large amounts of data such as a scope trace.

Regards,

Reiner

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Hauck [mailto:dhauck@Anadigics.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:37 AM
To: VRF
Subject: [vrf] USB/LAN instument interfaces

Hello all,
I'm trying to get an inkling of where this industry is REALLY heading.
How much new system development have ya'all been doing strictly using USB/LAN, no IEEE488?
Regards,
D.H.

---
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VRFuser Oct 27, 2006 1:03 PM
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I want to echo and expand on some of Martin's comments.

I have been involved with GPIB for 30 years now, including IEEE-488 committee work, writing device drivers for the Agilent 82350A (not to mention the 9835/45/26/36) and a whole lot of instrument driver work. I first heard criticism on GPIB during my first week at HP in 1977. I have constantly heard complaints about GPIB both from a cost standpoint and a throughput standpoint. Yet it still lives on 35 years later. Why is that?

First, GPIB is the first and still one of the best buses designed as an industrial communications standard. Both LAN and USB are attempts to modify computer standards to meet industrial needs. As a starting point look at the cabling and connectors. GPIB is double (sometimes triple) shielded.
The line drivers are all designed and specified to work in high noise environments. The connector has been thoroughly tested to withstand repeated abuse and is also heavily shielded.

The three wire handshake was absolutely brilliant and allows devices with radically different performance characteristics to work flawlessly together.
There is little to no minimum timing requirements to co-exist on the bus.

Configuration is a simple 1 of 31 address switch configuration. Not only that but manufacturers have worked for years on predicting and avoiding collisions for the default addresses so that 90% of the time, you don't even need to worry about that.

The existence of 488.2 and SCPI has standardized communication to the point where instruments can be auto discovered and configured. Further since GPIB is exclusively an instrumentation bus, programmers don't need to worry about conflicting devices and protocols interfering.

Short answer, it just works and works well.

The two major criticisms are cost and performance. Let's look at cost first.

Yes, the cables are expensive. They are also robust. We already talked about shielding. USB has minimal shielding, LAN has none, just twisted pairs. We used to test instruments and computers by wrapping 10 meters of GPIB cable around an industrial arc welder.

The connector is also tough. It solidly connects to the instrument. USB is strictly an interference fit. LAN has a simple plastic tab that I see broken off more often than not. How often have you gone out on the factory floor and found that the problem was a disconnected USB cable? You won't see that with GPIB. I once hung from a GPIB cable connected to an instrument and swung on it for 30 seconds. What would happen if I tried that with a LAN cable?

Next, the speed issue. People have been complaining about the 1 Mbyte/sec limit for as long as I can remember, yet when I analyze programs, I find that they are not bothering to do some of the simple tricks to utilize the available bandwidth and are generally transferring at under 50 Kbytes/sec.
There is a factor of 20 available to them. I am talking simple things like using binary instead of ASCII, buffering up readings for burst transfer to avoid addressing overhead, and lowering resolution to what they really need to increase transfer speed.

Finally there is the issue of stability. GPIB has been around forever.
Computer interface standards have a habit of changing every three to five years. Test systems last a long time, and it may be difficult to service that USB system in a few years. Tried to find an RS-232 equipped computer
lately? How about traditional ISA (or even PCI) slots? These were the
'new' way of doing interfaces just ten years ago. How much faith do we have that there will be USB available in another 10 years? How about 802.3 LAN?

Yes, GPIB will eventually die. Everything does, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. I predict a life for another 10-20 years as a primary instrument interface. The killer will likely be obsolescence of GPIB computer interfaces, not those on the instruments.

Jay Nemeth-Johannes
Smart Sensor Systems
720 SW 14th Street
Loveland, Colorado 80537
(970) 663-0006 (Office)
(970) 290-9797 (Cell)
www.SmartSensorSystems.com

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VRFuser Oct 27, 2006 2:50 PM
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Correct Answer
Excellently said.....
Â
Without being too doomy gloomy......at least the HP USB to GPIB interface worked seamlessly with a 5 year old program and Meter ( 10 years old HP344??) Â 2 months ago. ...... on first test AgilentIO(14)....and still working.....
Â
Waiting for XP, or a new corporate virus package ( compulsary!! ) to feck it up.
Â
Â
Regards,
Â
Willie Kiely
Advanced Manuf. Eng.
Bourns Electronics
Blackrock
Cork
Ireland
HYPERLINK "mailto:willie.kiely@bourns.com"willie.kiely@bourns.com
+353872222295
Â

Â _____ Â

From: Jay Nemeth-Johannes [mailto:jay.johannes@smartsensorsystems.com]
Sent: Fri 27/10/2006 21:01
To: VRF
Subject: RE: [vrf] USB/LAN instument interfaces

I want to echo and expand on some of Martin's comments.

I have been involved with GPIB for 30 years now, including IEEE-488
committee work, writing device drivers for the Agilent 82350A (not to
mention the 9835/45/26/36) and a whole lot of instrument driver work. I
first heard criticism on GPIB during my first week at HP in 1977.Â I have
constantly heard complaints about GPIB both from a cost standpoint and a
throughput standpoint.Â Yet it still lives on 35 years later.Â Why is that?

First, GPIB is the first and still one of the best buses designed as an
industrial communications standard.Â Both LAN and USB are attempts to modify
computer standards to meet industrial needs.Â As a starting point look at
the cabling and connectors.Â GPIB is double (sometimes triple) shielded.
The line drivers are all designed and specified to work in high noise
environments.Â The connector has been thoroughly tested to withstand
repeated abuse and is also heavily shielded.

The three wire handshake was absolutely brilliant and allows devices with
radically different performance characteristics to work flawlessly together.
There is little to no minimum timing requirements to co-exist on the bus.

Configuration is a simple 1 of 31 address switch configuration.Â Not only
that but manufacturers have worked for years on predicting and avoiding
collisions for the default addresses so that 90% of the time, you don't even
need to worry about that.

The existence of 488.2 and SCPI has standardized communication to the point
where instruments can be auto discovered and configured.Â Further since GPIB
is exclusively an instrumentation bus, programmers don't need to worry about
conflicting devices and protocols interfering.

Short answer, it just works and works well.

The two major criticisms are cost and performance.Â Let's look at cost
first.

Yes, the cables are expensive.Â They are also robust.Â We already talked
about shielding.Â USB has minimal shielding, LAN has none, just twisted
pairs.Â We used to test instruments and computers by wrapping 10 meters of
GPIB cable around an industrial arc welder.

The connector is also tough.Â It solidly connects to the instrument.Â USB is
strictly an interference fit.Â LAN has a simple plastic tab that I see
broken off more often than not.Â How often have you gone out on the factory
floor and found that the problem was a disconnected USB cable?Â You won't
see that with GPIB.Â I once hung from a GPIB cable connected to an
instrument and swung on it for 30 seconds.Â What would happen if I tried
that with a LAN cable?

Next, the speed issue.Â People have been complaining about the 1 Mbyte/sec
limit for as long as I can remember, yet when I analyze programs, I find
that they are not bothering to do some of the simple tricks to utilize the
available bandwidth and are generally transferring at under 50 Kbytes/sec.
There is a factor of 20 available to them.Â I am talking simple things like
using binary instead of ASCII, buffering up readings for burst transfer to
avoid addressing overhead, and lowering resolution to what they really need
to increase transfer speed.

Finally there is the issue of stability.Â GPIB has been around forever.
Computer interface standards have a habit of changing every three to five
years.Â Test systems last a long time, and it may be difficult to service
that USB system in a few years.Â Tried to find an RS-232 equipped computer
lately?Â Â How about traditional ISA (or even PCI) slots?Â These were the
'new' way of doing interfaces just ten years ago.Â How much faith do we have
that there will be USB available in another 10 years?Â How about 802.3 LAN?

Yes, GPIB will eventually die.Â Everything does, but I don't see it
happening anytime soon.Â I predict a life for another 10-20 years as a
primary instrument interface.Â The killer will likely be obsolescence of
GPIB computer interfaces, not those on the instruments.

Jay Nemeth-Johannes
Smart Sensor Systems
720 SW 14th Street
Loveland, Colorado 80537
(970) 663-0006Â (Office)
(970) 290-9797 (Cell)
www.SmartSensorSystems.com

---

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