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FW: vrf Linux port

Question asked by VRFuser on Dec 12, 2001
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"><HTML><HEAD><META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"><META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12"><TITLE>FW: vrf Linux port</TITLE></HEAD><BODY><BR><BR><P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Ross Bledsoe </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:48 AM</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: 'Shawn Fessenden'</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: RE: vrf Linux port</FONT></P><BR><P><FONT SIZE=2>Shawn,</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>You bring up some questions that I have considered putting out on the reflector but I thought they were too trivial.  I have only been on the reflector for about a month but it seems like the questions people present are for in house R & D projects or like you say "a throw together demo".  I am developing a test program in VEE and plan on installing it as a VXE to our manufacturing facility. They are a dedicated manufacturing environment that does high volume PCB manufacturing and test.  If you know of any facilities, in my geographical area, that use VEE in this capacity please let me know, I would like to contact them and possibly visit them to see how they use VEE in a manufacturing environment, its advantages and disadvantages.  Im located in St. Louis Missouri USA</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>Thanks</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>Ross</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Shawn Fessenden [<A HREF="mailto:s_fessenden@hotmail.com">mailto:s_fessenden@hotmail.com</A>]</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:29 AM</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: Nick@genesysibs.com; vrf@lvld.agilent.com</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: RE: vrf Linux port</FONT></P><BR><P><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Nick:</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>>Vee is a fabulous product but</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>>when you reach a certain level</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>>of program complexity it can</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>>also be dammed frustrating.</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>Welcome to the club Nick! As Rosanne would say, "It's just like my </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>great-great-grand-uncle Josana Riordana used to say: It's always something. </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>If it's not one thing it's another. Either your DMM won't work right or your </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>objects resize themselves."</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>In my own humble opinion (and please folks, no flames. This is just my </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>opinion) VEE was never meant to be used to deliver a finished product. It's </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>purpose is to throw together a demo at the drop of a hat, or to prove out a </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>concept, or to trace & understand integration incompatibilities.</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>It's great for in-house maintenance apps. As we speak, I'm using it to </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>reassemble huge multi-part UUE messages because it took me all of fifteen </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>minutes to put together something to do so. I can't even do that with </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>Q-Basic; my number-one favorite "just get it done now" language. Yeah sure, </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>awk would be better... but I don't like awk!</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>My opinion is based on experience using VEE in Windows only and I realize </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>that's not fair. Remember that this is a duck out of water. As far as UI </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>construction is concerned, this is the lamest product I've ever seen.</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>Under HP-UX, these concerns vanish. It's not a CPU pig, it doesn't leak </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>horribly and it's not instantly recognizable as a foreigner. UI details are </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>probably of no concern either -- I don't know as I've only played with it in </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>UX and I didn't get into that aspect.</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>Until VEE is re-designed and re-written from scratch as a Win32 application, </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>it simply will NOT behave "correctly" in Windows. Since I'm fairly certain </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>that will never happen, I've simply stopped worrying about it.</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>It's an incredibly useful tool that can be used very quickly in many </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>different ways to do a variety of jobs and for that I'm incredibly grateful. </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>It makes my job LOTS easier.</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>Now, think about it from Agilent's point of view: the Windows version is </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>nothing more than a pain in the ***. Everybody complains. People like me sit </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>there and reverse engineer it and point out weaknesses or flat-out Win32 </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>no-nos.</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>Sure, it's brought a lot of revenue but at what cost? A couple of WinVEE's </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>more obvious problems make Agilent software developers look like a bunch of </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>"Hello, World!" newbies.</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>And now they have to support not one, not two, not three, but FOUR operating </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>systems. Yes, theoretically Win32 is one consistent API but trust me: when </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>you start digging down deep, 95, 98, ME, NT and 2000 can get quite </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>different. I can't wait to see what breaks on XP now.</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>Agilent employees who stop by the VRF to try to help get publicly slapped </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>around for their efforts. Believe me, I'm sure Scott wasn't kidding about </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>being "strongly discouraged" from participating.</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>And I'm not finger pointing either: if so, then the finger points firmly in </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>my direction. I'm bald and permanently blue in the face from tearing out my </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>hair and screaming wildly at the screen one hour before show time. And on a </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>few occasions I've been guilty of venting that stress and frustration here </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>and in private. That's just not acceptable. You can't gripe at a screwdriver </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>manufacturer because they make a standard screwdriver and you need a </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>phillips.</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>In short, IMO VEE is a language that does great things in it's own </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>environment. Conceptually it's a huge leap forward not just in programming </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>in general but also in it's own class as an iconic language. BUT: it runs on </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>a proprietary version of UNIX and interacts with a proprietary version of an </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>X-Windows server. I'm sure it was meant to be a great Windows application, </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>but it most certainly is NOT. Exactly why this is the case I'm not 100% </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>sure, but it looks to me as if a decision was made early on to take the </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>shortest path to a useable product: Emulate those portions of VEE's native </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>environment that are too difficult to port to the target environment, and </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>don't even bother taking into account the "philosophical differences" </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>between those environments.</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>As the good Doctor says, "We live in an imperfect universe." If you use the </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>Windows incarnation of VEE to run a test system, you simply have to deal </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>with the fact that it's never going to hold a candle to that which could </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>have been created had you used a development tool that's "Designed For </FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>Windows".</FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>If this concerns you, then don't do Windows. Do HP-UX and do it right.</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>-SHAWN-</FONT></P><BR><P><FONT SIZE=2>_________________________________________________________________</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: <A HREF="http://messenger.msn.com" TARGET="_blank">http://messenger.msn.com</A></FONT></P><P><FONT SIZE=2>---------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>This is the "vrf" maillist, managed by Majordomo.  To send messages to</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>this maillist, just email to "vrf@lvld.agilent.com".  Subscriptions and</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>unsubscriptions are done through the address "vrf-request@lvld.agilent.com".</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>If you need details, just send a message containing the text "help"</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>to "vrf-request@lvld.agilent.com".</FONT><BR><FONT SIZE=2>---------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></P></BODY></HTML>  

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